Paul was trained as a Sufi from Punditt Maharaj in Brighton. One aspect of this training involved reading the Tarot cards for clients. Very quickly Paul (who had never previously studied the Tarot) had to learn in the very act of giving readings. As a result, Paul’s perspective and knowledge of the Tarot is founded on practical knowledge and experience.
1. What is the role of a Tarot reader?
Mage, Devil’s Advocate, an Outsider, a non-judgmental observer and commentator, an agony aunt. Sometimes all of them, and sometimes none.
2. I noticed you didn’t say fortune teller. Is there a particular reason why you’ve not chosen this word?
“Fortune teller” is the disposer of Fortune, which is presumptuous to say the least, and robs the client of free will. The fortune teller doles out your luck, take it or leave it.
3. Are you saying then that as a Tarot Reader we need to look at ways of empowering the client; of exploring the possibilities?
Very much so. We have to include the known as well as the unknown. If a tarot reader confirms what a client already knows, that could be a ‘good reading’, as far as both are concerned, but that does not mean that other more fulfilling avenues have been explored. There are times when I have had to suggest directions that the client did not appreciate (and I did not understand) which created tension, but events demonstrated that I was right to say what I said. In therapeutic terms (and I am not saying that people who come for readings need therapy), more than one outcome is always preferable.
Douglas: I think part of the difficulty in providing options to people who ask for a reading is that it produces resistance. The resistance seems to be a result of taking the past with us into the present. In other words, people have a goal or dream and as the weeks and months roll by they still hold onto that dream; whether it’s working or not. In this sense, certain aspects of an individual’s psychology are living in a ‘past version’ of themselves. The openness to the possibilities of the future is therefore very difficult for them to see. At the same time it’s hard for them to let go of this ‘past self’.
4. Do you think its part of a Tarot readers responsibility to attempt to discuss some alternatives with the client?
What you are describing are the patterns that people live within, and the reader has to be sensitive – it may not be the right time to make the break. At some point they begin to realise that those patterns, or lifestyles either no longer work, or that people want to break out. In my experience this is a sign of growing up, of living from an inner perspective rather doing what everyone else does. However, of course, they will not be able to consult with friends or family or colleagues about new perspectives precisely because these people are part of the pattern! Furthermore, consulting with professionals such as doctors is unlikely to work for precisely the same reasons.
In that situation, where do you go? Outside of your community or milieu, and as tarot readers are seen as outside, just as the gypsy forbears are (still are) seen as outsiders. It goes without saying that the tarot reader has gone through a similar process. There are interesting parallels too with tarot readers who realise that they too have to go beyond what the consensus or orthodoxy of tarot readings involves.
Of course, if the person has not quite got to the point of realising that it is time to move on, to grow, then I will drop in a seed that will eventually grow into something.
5. Can you elaborate on what you mean by, “drop in a seed that will eventually grow into something”?
Either I am seeing something in the future that the client does not know about or understand, and I so I have to say something that will make sense when that event happens, and hopefully will help the client. Otherwise there are times when I say something that I do not understand, but eventually make sense. My teacher did that a lot to me. Sometimes things he said will make sense twenty years later. It is a bit like the analogy of the difference between what you see in the valley, and the greater view you get from a higher vantage point.
6. In terms of people who want to learn the Tarot; what do you think the relevance, or rather how much importance would you place on learning the Divinatory meanings of the cards?
It is important to memorise some meanings for each card. It is a bit like learning to drive. Figuring out the clutch and gear and all that stuff takes a bit of time, but after a while changing gear is no longer part of the conscious process. What is more beneficial is to have greater awareness of the structure of the tarot, particularly the four elements, and the astrological attributions. If you want to be taken seriously in the tarot community, learning the Tree of Life and kabbalah is useful for showing off. Seeing the bigger picture is more important than the individual cards, which is why Elemental Dignities is so useful in understanding the energies of combinations of cards.
7. What would your advice be for somebody who’s just starting out in their study of the Tarot?
There is a big emphasis in the tarot community for getting the right deck, learning divinatory meanings, and learning loads of spreads; and this all creates stress. You might be surprised to know that I would suggest getting a basic Rider-Waite deck, because it is the one everybody knows. The deck will come with a Little White Book (LWB), which will give you the basics, so you do not have to purchase a book.
Take time to familiarise yourself with all the cards so after a while you can instantly recognise anyone you pull out at random. No need to worry about the divinatory meanings to start with. If you can come up with a few words or a phrase for each card that is a good basis – for example with the Death card, what comes to my mind is ’sex, death and money’. Get a friend to go through the cards at random, and when they say for example “Two of Cups”, you should be able to say ‘love’, without even looking at the card. By now you should be aware that there is a structure to the tarot – the Major, Minor and Court cards.
Every tarot teacher and their dog recommend doing daily readings, or readings for yourself, but the result of such practices is dependence on the tarot and depression. Practice is important, but it is better to do imaginary ‘readings’ for your favourite movie star or singer while you gain confidence. Being relaxed is the key to learning the tarot, and allowing the subconscious to work, rather than keeping everything at the surface conscious level. Done right, you will get thoughts. ideas and insights that do not make sense to the logical part of the mind, but if you pursue them you will be a talented reader.
Find some people you can practice with and learn. Many students purchase decks in the hope that the new decks will give them that extra insight, but in my experience this is unlikely to happen. The main beneficiaries are the publishers.
Once your ambitions are growing, then look at Elemental Dignities and Card Counting, and I would recommend the Thoth Tarot as the colours and illustrations are designed to be read even when the cards overlap.
8. Would you mind exploring the point you made about: what is conscious in the beginning, namely that of learning the DM’s, becomes unconscious allowing for illogical insights to develop?
All these things cover a vast area, and they are all inter-related, so keeping an open mind and allowing connections to grow is a good idea. As students explore they will gain in confidence and understanding.
It took me years to realise that there is no definitive divinatory meaning for any of the cards so I wasted a lot of time. With a different mind set, it is easier to learn this way rather than by rote. What happens when a student starts to read the tarot for others is that there is a powerful fear of not remembering the meaning of the cards. If you have the diagnostic tools to start with, it is easier to find a way into the reading.
9. How important is astrology to the Tarot?
Very. Astrology is based upon dynamic relationships between the planets, the signs and the houses, and so we can harness this knowledge in our readings. At one level the four elements are common to tarot and astrology, while apart from the Aces and Page/Princesses, all the cards have an astrological counterpart. Astrology is a remarkably underused resource, given that astrology is built around prediction. I use the astrological attributions to make predictions in tarot readings all the time.
10. From what I understand, your work with the Tarot also centres on its magickal or mystical applications. Would you mind discussing this aspect of your work?
The tarot can be seen as a unifying force of many apparently unconnected systems, while viewed from another perspective the tarot can be used to describe other systems. Tarot is about connectiveness, its ability to link or create threads, and there is a language or code that can be utilised to access systems. The one man who really understood this was Aleister Crowley, so if you understand his allusions to the tarot in even his most obscure writings, you have something to hook into.
Tarot does not have judgements, but it does have views, and used correctly, offers a multiplicity of ways of seeing, connecting, or breaking through into deeper levels. I am aware that all this is abstract, but abstraction does lend itself to penetration into secrets.
In general there is a dichotomy between magic, mysticism and the tarot; after all tarot is just about fortune telling, isn’t it? But the more I study and explore, the more I realise that these barriers are illusory. For example, there is a Universe of the Tarot that can be explored mystically and magically, and for which there are real Powers that can be harnessed by the enterprising seer. I should say at this point that I am not talking about the kabbalistic Tree of Life either.
Some books on magic advise that the magician should perform some kind of divination before embarking upon a magickal operation, but as we know from quantum mechanics that mere observation of something changes it. There are also books on tarot and magic that give the usual kind of cookbook approach which is rather tedious and only of use if you believe spells work. Looked at passively, tarot has no intrinsic power, but actually when it is seen from a dynamic perspective, tarot is magic, while pursuance of philosophy in conjunction with the tarot I find very fruitful.
11. On your website and in your book you’ve talked about the Goetia. This is a very difficult subject to comprehend. How would you explain the connection that the Goetia have with the Tarot and also their relationship to the Tarot reader?
The Goetia are discussed in the Lemegeton of Solomon, which was translated by McGregor Mathers and Aleister Crowley. There are 72 spirits, the number of precession, and it seems that they originated from the 36 decanates in Ancient Egypt, but the names and powers have been corrupted by translation from various languages. Mathers and Crowley associated the decanates to the Minor cards excluding the aces, so it was a natural step to attribute the Goetia to these Minor cards.
Invocation or evocation of the Goetic spirits is considered an extremely dangerous activity that takes month of preparation, and the results are not particularly helpful. However, in my spiritual journey some of the Goetic spirits have appeared to me from time to time, and this process has accelerated as I work using the counting technique and elemental dignities. I do not seek the spirits, but when they do appear they have been very helpful to me.
There is a school of thought, which I subscribe to, which says that all divination is through the agency of spirits, but of course this approach does not lend well to writing about. My teacher talked about spirits, but he never gave them a name, collectively or individually, so it was left to me to experience in my own way.
Addendum
This is a side section to the main interview, which allows Jason to ask Paul some questions. Jason and I started discussing Paul’s work via email. It quickly became apparent to me that Jason’s enthusiasm and knowledge of Paul’s work would add an interesting addition to the interview.
Firstly, let me introduce you to Jason:
I started with tarot in the mid-90s, as an extension of metaphysical interests at the time. I left such things behind after college, until a couple of years ago when I rediscovered tarot, and the decks I had kept. Real life (full-time job, part-time student, significant other, pets) conspires to keep me busy, but I continue to explore tarot. My interests lie towards the esoteric and GD-influenced tarot, as well as modern tarotists who like to push boundaries. I like to think of tarot as more than just therapeutic, otherwise we should all go to licensed therapists instead of reading cards – Jason.
Below are Jason’s questions to Paul:
1. Is Paul still working on a follow up book to Tarot and the Magus? If so, can he share any tidbits?
Book II should be out this autumn, and it is a true account of a reading I did with a client. We go on a journey that takes a woman from who knows a bit about tarot and lacking confidence to becoming a professional tarot reader. During the journey she sees visions associated with the tarot, and starts to work with spirits.
2. Typical readers seem to use multiple small spreads during a reading. The Opening of the Key (OOTK) as Paul uses it can be involved to analyze; does it ever take more than one OOTK spread to work through a single session with a client?
If the first spread shows that the outcome is heavily dependent on the expectations of the client I will often redo the reading to demonstrate how much differently things will look with a new outlook on life.
3. Paul has written about the OOTK being a magical act in itself. I pondered this, but it eluded me for a while. Then all of a sudden it seemed simple. This spread can empower the querent to become aware of (hidden) factors/influences in life; thus enabling better decisions to be made. In a way, it gives the power to “surf probabilities.” (I like that phrase.) Would Paul agree with that?
That is an excellent analogy. I would add that an OOTK reading creates a resonance or harmony with the present situation that allows the spiritual forces to easily work with the magician. In therapeutic terms, having more than one outcome is far better than a single outcome.
4. Tarot and the Magus is written with a tight Qabalah integration; later writing on Supertarot talks about separating tarot from the Tree of Life. What are Paul’s current thoughts on this?
Life evolves! There is a big difference between Kabbalism and the Tree of Life (ToL). Besides, without knowledge of the ToL, Crowley’s writings are far more incomprehensible than they need to be.
5. Lastly, Paul seems to have changed his mind about the Goetia over time. I wasn’t quite sure chronologically where his changes occur. I am curious as to his final verdict on those spirits.
Final verdicts are dangerous. I love the Goetia, and I would venture to say that they love me. There is a playful and joyful quality to them that is entirely lacking in almost any other writings on them. Having said that, the journey was not particularly comfortable. There needs to be a healthy relationship between man and spirits, rather than the exploitative one that seems to exist otherwise.
Douglas: This interview is still on going and I will be publishing more posts as the interview continues. If you would like to know more about Paul then you can visit his website, Supertarot.
Paul is also the author of Tarot and the Magus: Opening the Key to Divination, Magick and the Holy Guardian Angel
Let me know what you thought of the interview, if there are any questions you would like to ask Paul, or if there is anything you agreed with, didn’t agree with, liked or didn’t like.
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